This is where I get to express my opinions..take note these are just my opinions and are not to be taken as if im a know it all. I don't mind criticism and multiple viewpoints..thats what makes this game fun.

Orcs vs Humans. Probably one of the most debated..which is better and why? Everyone knows it's truly just a matter of opinion..because you can't actually say one is better than the other. Both have high points..both have low.

My take on Orcs: If you were to think about it..Orcs in WC2 are the same as they are in WC3..Nothing but pure muscle and power. Their biggest spell is 'bloodlust' which enhances their units power tremendously. Any experienced or seasoned player will know this is one of the most dire spells to get. The other of course being Death and Decay. The way orcs are typically played, from my viewpoint, is DnD the mines and towers, and rush in with a buttload of lusted ogres. But that won't always work. If you want to play orcs well you need variety. For instance..say you dual maybe 12 and 2 or 11 and 9. Most good players toss up some raxes at 11 or 9 and in the opposite base some roosts with a Temple of the Damned on the outside somewhere for producing Dk's. Most players I see now use the same tactic..Rushing in with dragons Dk's and massive amounts of ogres to overpower their opponents. This works..most of the time. But not everytime. A good good player will know how to fight back and continue his own onslaught..which brings me now to Humans..

My take on Humans: Humans are to WC2 what the Humans are to WC3..they're the most versatile but lack in the power department. Their strongest unit is by far, on ground, the Mage. Their second strongest the griffon..and third the Knight. The pattern is the same as above with how people attack..but Knights cannot have bloodlust. So what I ask is, what happened to heal? Back in my older days I remember heal was a main staple of the human armies. It was an equivolent to Lust. If you had more knights than he had ogres..healing came in handy in defeating a good lusted handful of ogres. Then heal up and attack with more knights while having rehealed the ones that were injured. In this, humans are equally as powerful as the orcs. In magic however, the props have got to go to humans. Blizzard is an absolutely deadly spell compared to DnD. It destroys units much better than buildings where as DnD destroys buildings better than units. (If you read up on why, you'll see..no duh. )

My point is..Can't we really see that Orcs and Humans are equal? The only reason Orcs are played most often is I think, because of bloodlust..but whens the last time you've seen someone who's been rushing pinned down by another rush? It takes too long to get a catapult sometimes..so why not get 5-6 archers and take down the guard tower or cannon tower while foots take fire? Or even snipe the peons behind the rax that are repairing it? Can we ever see another 9 Dk's multi-cast a whirlwind and take down a base? What about Polymorphing a Dk before it manages to strike? Exorcism even..God I miss that spell too..which is why I still use it In any case..thats my view on these two races. Criticize at your leisure.
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-A galaxy is just a group of stars. Im not on Orions Belt-

Basically, humans are better than orcs on f, while orcs owns humans on ef.

On fastest u cant use lust at his full potential. In a dual vs dual wars, which happens very often on gow bne f, lusting your 20 ogres takes a while. You can't have bloodlust used at his full potential unless u barely scout and expand. Ogre mages requires a hella lot of micro while knights doesnt. While the orc player waste his time trying to get a big group of ogres attacking with lust, the human player can just produce a lot of air and keep a few mages on the defensive and take out about any amounts of ogres.

On ef, you can lust your ogres a lot more efficiently. You have the time to lust them all every time theres a threat. Human mages on ef are a lot less effective, blizzard being avoided a lot easier. On fastest u can barely dodge a blizzard, all the units dies too quick.

Defensive mages on fastest rocks. They do so much damages. Its a lot tougher to hit a human expand than an orc one.

Points make good sense kanuks
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-A galaxy is just a group of stars. Im not on Orions Belt-

Except in order to be competitive you need to use knights and a lot of them as well and they require more micro since you need to constantly heal as oppossed to lust once and go until it runs out. You also can't pre-emptively heal. I feel on maps that are more open like GoW or PoS that bloodlust presents an obvious advantage but on maps like Maze or a water map humans gain the edge.

Got to remember though..no self-respecting human player is going to stand near a group of ogres and wait for them to lust. I see it as as soon as I get 9-12 I send em..and keep doing it non-stop. Not giving the Orcs the time to get back on their feet is a good key to beating them..since if they do get alot of ogres, even a late lust will hurt.
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-A galaxy is just a group of stars. Im not on Orions Belt-

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Originally posted by FMAx2
Except in order to be competitive you need to use knights and a lot of them as well and they require more micro since you need to constantly heal as oppossed to lust once and go until it runs out. You also can't pre-emptively heal. I feel on maps that are more open like GoW or PoS that bloodlust presents an obvious advantage but on maps like Maze or a water map humans gain the edge.

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It takes very little time to lust. It is hard to compete against on maps that are easy to navigate and a good player with orc is going to use lust to contain a human opponent with much greater ease then a human player can against an orc.

Let's say I'm building an expansion @ 11 with a townhall under construction to block the entrance. I have mages inside so it will be very difficult for them my opponent to just use lust to break in so he needs to bring in DKs to destroy or severally damage the hall first. These are easily protected by the Ogres w/lust before knights can kill them. You can use excorsism but if you only keep a few knights there to do so he will send in a couple ogres ahead to kill them before bringing dks. If you react quick enough and scout well enough you can polymorph them but eventually you will be caught off gaurd by it and a defense like this requires you researching exorcism and polymorph and commit more resources and time to defending an expansion then you would need to as orc against human. Lusting your ogres will kill off the knights and mages after the mages cast there spell but without more knights to immediately follow up it was for naught. Once established the big threat is from invisible mages (again something which takes more resources to create) which a very simple tower or dk and ogre patrol can prevent from doing nearly as much damage.

Also just spending the extra resources on the spells can be a deal breaker. You will spend thousands in gold just getting to the point where you have these tools at your disposale. This can easily already be a deal breaker since soon as you get to the lust stage Orc gain a huge power advantage and humans need to play a game of cat and mouse utilizing geurilla attacks to maximize there potential. Many good players aren't going to give you the chance to regain a level playing field. They are going to use the temporary balance in power to snowball it into an even larger edge.

It might be more even on maps that are "open" if both sides could simultaneously tell all there units on the map to do but since the game is being played by humans that isn't the case. Humans require more micro which againt evenly matched players will often cost them the game. As I said in maps like Maze, Forest Trails, FOC this is not the case however since no one hardly play these I'm not going to go into why humans are better on these types of maps or FFAs since no one would care.

You're right about ef but f is a completely different game. The fact u almost have to struggle to spend your ress makes it very odd. Its better to take 2 secs to click your 6 raxes and 2 roosts and pump units than trying to micro your 4 remaining damaged ogres that would just die a few secs later.

Or if you're human you can just outrush your opponent or knight/sap them before they even have lust.
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-A galaxy is just a group of stars. Im not on Orions Belt-

I own everyone with humans or orcs so it doesnt really make much differencce to me.

ganzthelegend is hilarious. the funniest poster on these forums x100

yeah and his jokes are original

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Originally posted by GaNzTheLegend
I own everyone with humans or orcs so it doesnt really make much differencce to me.

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The only real thing screwing humans in War2 (besides the ef and fastest speeds-- MS DOS default (BNE=faster) is the best speed), is the amount of gold required.

Gold is far more important than wood at high resources, so the 800 and the *cough* 2400 sword upgrades REALLY put a human player behind. When you're attempting to rush hard, an orc player will be able to keep pumping peons, while a human will fall behind quickly. And assuming a game is equal, once castle stage is reached, Orcs need 1000 for altar, 1000 for upgrade ogremagi, 1000 lust, and bam. Humans need 2-3 mage towers, (3000), research blizzard (2000), each mage = 1200 (since you have to train new mages, unlike upgrading existing ogres), slow=500, and other impportant stuff......well....just add it up. You're talking about 10,000 gold vs 3000-4000 before you can match lusted ogres on an even footing.

Low resources is completely different, as you need -wood- even more than gold early on. Humans can take advantage of this by putting one extra guy on gold, and that handles all the upgrades very easily. 800+2400 compared to 500/100 and 1500/300 is "balanced" dynamically. And on low, you are more free to worry about how to deal with ogres before they get lust, or how to manage your mage upgrade cash, plus changing the game early to gain the cash you need, instead of being forced to dual or else...

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Originally posted by KaNuKs

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Originally posted by GaNzTheLegend
I own everyone with humans or orcs so it doesnt really make much differencce to me.

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out of 5 games vs me, you used orcs the 5 games. Clearly proves how good you are with humans.

5-0, nice dual newbie.

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I think I'm back for war2 permanently now (unless I decide to actually PLAY war3, even though I have it and TFT installed), but only on "faster/ladder" (DOS default) speed.

Every time I do even faster, the injury deep in my wrist flares up and starts swelling.

I thought the damn thing would have HEALED in 4 years. I guess I need surgery to fix it...and I can't afford that.....

Blame 2 hour games on GOW high vs LetSeeFirst on zone, for that.....

(that is, if idiots like ViruZ stop stealing my damn name...I can't even use falkentyne (i have to use falkentyne1, instead) cuz some inactive nub has it on US east, and NO ONE goes on US west....)

If someone finds a way to make a pkt:3 for battlenet ill never quit playing....

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Originally posted by ~Galaxy
Or if you're human you can just outrush your opponent or knight/sap them before they even have lust.

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Originally posted by Falkentyne

If someone finds a way to make a pkt:3 for battlenet ill never quit playing....

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I don't understand how you wouldn't have wrist problems on a slower speed. On any speed the quality of your play is limited by the number of movements/clicks you can make per time unit.

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Originally posted by Falkentyne

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Originally posted by ~Galaxy
Or if you're human you can just outrush your opponent or knight/sap them before they even have lust.

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How can you outrush an orc player ?
On low, that is very possible. But on high?

That 2400 sword upgrade will kill you every time. Do the math...
You will run out of gold faster than you will run out of wood on high (but not on low).

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Originally posted by Falkentyne

Every time I do even faster, the injury deep in my wrist flares up and starts swelling.

I thought the damn thing would have HEALED in 4 years.

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Thats kinda funny getting injured from playing a computer game.

Stop making fun of me I really don't care about this game anymore. I play for fun. And I suck, so Yippie-Kai-Yah......

Kith: The reason is:
When you're rushing with 2 raxes, you have to spend gold of course, on peons, Raxes, Grunts, farms and so on, and the smith upgrades.
Assuming BOTH players manage their peons pretty much the same way, the human player will run *out* of crash first. 800 gold vs 500 gold, means the orc player will be able to train 1 extra peon, right? That peon will put him ahead. The human player will have to do something to compensate for that 300 gold. That might be skipping a grunt or something (which can be a bad thing if you're in a big melee).

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that both players keep parity and after a few skirmishes, each player has 6 level 3 warriors left and 1500 gold. The orc player will gleefully hit the 1500 sword upgrade for level 4. Humans will not be able to afford their upgrade. They will have to choose the 900/500 upgrade (which can hurt their wood more), or fall back and defend with a tower or something else. You see my point, though. On high resources, you might THINK you have a lot, but it goes **fast**. (i'm not going to get into the wood balance--you run out of gold far sooner than you run out of wood, in "spendfest" wars).

I have ALWAYS found, that on low resources, I have absolutely NO problem with the 2400 sword upgrade. Why? Because I can put 3 extra peons on gold to compensate for it, while the orc player will need to put 3 extra peons on wood. It balances out

But to each his own. I put too much energy into other games over the last few years....war2 simply makes me dizzy now. Give Mages the "Wish" spell, "Slow Group" (as in AD&D) and a "Delayed Blast Fireball" <--best spell ever, and I might take it seriously again

And boy, did I have some good games back in the day when I shared a modified War2 with some other players and we fucked with the mana of the spells 50 mana whirlwind, 25 mana Slow, 50 mana Flame shield, 20 mana Raise Dead, lol !! FUN FUN FUN !!
Skeletons rock!

nerd

Nerd this.

And I still remember when I had to convince Jay cotton that my 'war2mana.exe' wasn't a cheat, as both people had to have the same file for it to work....

Ganz blows

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Originally posted by Strapping Young Lad
Ganz blows

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