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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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Concerning Conservative (in general)
My opinion is that the whole idea of a "conservative" party is just an infringement on people's rights.
Having conservative ideals, and bringing your family up that way is fine. But, if you are a government organization you should have the scope of vision to respect the fact that of the millions of people in your country, not everyone will want the same thing, and trying to force conservative ideals upon people is a violation of their rights. Thus being liberal is really the only alternative.
But thats just my opinion.
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Wed May 04, 2005 9:24 am |
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Axolotl
Joined: 14 Sep 2000
Posts: 3772
Location: Vancouver BC |
But we should ban cheerleading -- it's far too sexual.
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Wed May 04, 2005 10:23 am |
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x
Joined: 31 Oct 2001
Posts: 1634
Location: Athens, GA |
just ban male cheerleading
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Wed May 04, 2005 11:01 am |
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JiGGa_MaN
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 10014
Location: Future home of the Stanley cup, Ottawa |
I think the party system itself is idiotic. When you slate yourself as a Liberal or a Conservative, you are essentially deciding where you stand on every issue before even hearing it.
There should be freedom to choose according to your constituents, not your party affiliation. I mean, I am very liberal about some things, like Marijuana, whereas I am conservative about other things, like Major Crime (rape, murder, etc).
The only way to truly improve the democracy of the US, is to give EVERY SINGLE REGISTERED CITIZEN OF VOTING ELIGIBILITY a pager. Basically, everytime a new issue is up for debate, you are asked to vote on this pager. The totals are tabulated, and America has decided for itself, by majority rule.
Representative Democracy is fucking bullshit IMO.
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
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Wed May 04, 2005 12:29 pm |
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ThePanacea
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 1466
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Problems with Majority rule in general:
#1 - Tyranny of the majority. 51% of the population can completely rule the other 49%
#2 - Lack of intelligence/knowledge/apathy makes it very hard for the "people" to make informed decisions. Look who was elected president, and look at his competition. Two pathetic choices.
#3 - This pager idea would cost billions. Their would surely be problems with people using a system like this.
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Wed May 04, 2005 12:33 pm |
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ghostnuke
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 5668
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Your post would have been a lot better if you had just said it was wrong to legislate morality, or focused it on today's Neo-Conservative movement in particular, rather than setting up and knocking down a conservative strawman.
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Wed May 04, 2005 12:53 pm |
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ThePanacea
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 1466
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This argument ignores ecnomics as well.
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Wed May 04, 2005 1:13 pm |
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JiGGa_MaN
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 10014
Location: Future home of the Stanley cup, Ottawa |
quote:
Originally posted by ThePanacea
Problems with Majority rule in general:
#1 - Tyranny of the majority. 51% of the population can completely rule the other 49%
#2 - Lack of intelligence/knowledge/apathy makes it very hard for the "people" to make informed decisions. Look who was elected president, and look at his competition. Two pathetic choices.
#3 - This pager idea would cost billions. Their would surely be problems with people using a system like this.
#1 - Already present today, take a look at who won the Presidential Election in 2004. Then rewind to 2000, when Supreme Court Judges 'helped' you guys elect a complete dolt.
#2 - Already present today. Fact: a Majority of Senators never even read the Patriot Act before voting it in. As long as ignorance is going to prevail, it might aswell be that of the people.
#3 - It would cost more than current voting practises. Until you consider complete removal of Senator/Congress paychecks, and that fact that these pagers would last a lifetime, not simply 1 election as with the supplies currently being utilized.
Entire Legislative branch would be cut down to a few computers, and a few ombudsmen. Looks like savings to me.
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
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Wed May 04, 2005 5:01 pm |
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Bryter-
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 347
Location: Directly above the center of the Earth |
Re: Concerning Conservative (in general)
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
My opinion is that the whole idea of a "conservative" party is just an infringement on people's rights.
So is liberalism. Even more so with your socialist economic enslavement.
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
Having conservative ideals, and bringing your family up that way is fine. But, if you are a government organization you should have the scope of vision to respect the fact that of the millions of people in your country, not everyone will want the same thing, and trying to force conservative ideals upon people is a violation of their rights.
Exactly. However, its a --or should be-- a two way street. Liberals go around trying to force their economic socialist servitude on hard working people. Not only that, they are taking away free speech (most apparent on college campuses) and liberal teachers/professors (over 90% are liberal) are pushing socialist agendas on students in the classroom.
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
Thus being liberal is really the only alternative.
Obviously people should be tolerant, respectful, blah blah of others. So all should strive for that goal. But it needs to be done both socially and economically. You are not going to successfully have one or the other. You only want it one way --liberally. Again it needs to be both social and economic freedom. That is why you should be a Libertarian.
_________________
"you are very very stupid, nothing that you ever said made sense and/or was right. i think this world would be a much better place if you were dead. same goes for your parents.
please die a painful death now."
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Wed May 04, 2005 5:46 pm |
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ThePanacea
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 1466
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I knew that the first point was still present today. The second point is the reason we don't have direct democracy (assuming the pager system was going to be equal, fair, etc). I don't trust fellow people to not be complete bafoons and the idea of tyranny of the majority really comes into play. Our current government may not be doing a great job, but they know a hell of a lot more on the issues than the vast majority of the people in America.
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Wed May 04, 2005 9:12 pm |
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JiGGa_MaN
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 10014
Location: Future home of the Stanley cup, Ottawa |
quote:
Originally posted by ThePanacea
I knew that the first point was still present today. The second point is the reason we don't have direct democracy (assuming the pager system was going to be equal, fair, etc). I don't trust fellow people to not be complete bafoons and the idea of tyranny of the majority really comes into play. Our current government may not be doing a great job, but they know a hell of a lot more on the issues than the vast majority of the people in America.
I'm not sure you can say that. While I agree that from a broader, nation-wide perspective they may have a better sense of current issues, on the individual, personal level they are miles from the pulse of Americana.
Besides, its the same morons who vote in those that call the shots. Are you really making that much of a change by eliminating the middle man?
And to be fair, even idiots deserve a voice. Afterall, if 200 Million Americans read a report in August saying "Al-Qaida determined to strike in US", I think more would have been done in terms of prevention. Especially when it was well known these guys were learning to be pilots....
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
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Thu May 05, 2005 1:05 am |
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Ocram-OB
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 2600
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quote:
Originally posted by ThePanacea
#1 - Tyranny of the majority. 51% of the population can completely rule the other 49%
this is the very principle of democracy. since in a real state (forget about marxism and other idealisms) you will never have just one opinion, you gotta at least try to satisfy as many people as possible. it doesnt matter if you win by one vote or if you win with 99% of the votes. it's just harder to accept.
the problem is that a two party system (or voting yes or no in a referendum) is too polarising. and that doesnt suck because democracy is shit (hi there bryter-), but because there is a lack of alternatives because so many people dont give a fuck about politics.
do you know what i mean?
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Thu May 05, 2005 2:47 pm |
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stoned@chayliss
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 2427
Location: Indiana USA |
Re: Concerning Conservative (in general)
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
My opinion is that the whole idea of a "conservative" party is just an infringement on people's rights.
Having conservative ideals, and bringing your family up that way is fine. But, if you are a government organization you should have the scope of vision to respect the fact that of the millions of people in your country, not everyone will want the same thing, and trying to force conservative ideals upon people is a violation of their rights. Thus being liberal is really the only alternative.
But thats just my opinion.
where the hell is this going on at?!!?
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Thu May 05, 2005 4:21 pm |
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stoned@chayliss
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 2427
Location: Indiana USA |
Re: Concerning Conservative (in general)
quote:
Originally posted by Bryter-
they are taking away free speech (most apparent on college campuses) .
how so
btw i could get shitlisted in college
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Thu May 05, 2005 4:25 pm |
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Bryter-
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 347
Location: Directly above the center of the Earth |
Re: Concerning Conservative (in general)
quote:
Originally posted by stoned@chayliss
quote:
Originally posted by Bryter-
they are taking away free speech (most apparent on college campuses) .
how so
btw i could get shitlisted in college
Political correctness silly
_________________
"you are very very stupid, nothing that you ever said made sense and/or was right. i think this world would be a much better place if you were dead. same goes for your parents.
please die a painful death now."
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Fri May 06, 2005 7:51 pm |
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ArchAngel
Joined: 18 Nov 2000
Posts: 2826
Location: Rochester, NY, USA |
Re: Concerning Conservative (in general)
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
My opinion is that the whole idea of a "conservative" party is just an infringement on people's rights.
Having conservative ideals, and bringing your family up that way is fine. But, if you are a government organization you should have the scope of vision to respect the fact that of the millions of people in your country, not everyone will want the same thing, and trying to force conservative ideals upon people is a violation of their rights. Thus being liberal is really the only alternative.
But thats just my opinion.
Nice post Kith. I agree with what you said. Unfortunately this country has become more of an "us vs them" battle and nobody is winning.
- The ONLY thing DUMBER than a REPUBLICAN, and a DEMOCRAT is when these pricks work TOGETHER!! - Lewis Black
My interest in politics was pretty big back during the elections but the truth is it's better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt and that statement holds so very true for politics.
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Fri May 06, 2005 8:35 pm |
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ghostnuke
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 5668
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Re: Concerning Conservative (in general)
quote:
Originally posted by Bryter-
Exactly. However, its a --or should be-- a two way street. Liberals go around trying to force their economic socialist servitude on hard working people. Not only that, they are taking away free speech (most apparent on college campuses) and liberal teachers/professors (over 90% are liberal) are pushing socialist agendas on students in the classroom.
hahahahaha
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Sat May 07, 2005 12:36 am |
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Necrophilic
Joined: 22 Nov 2003
Posts: 400
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quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel
I know this is a moderated forum but Bryter that is quite possibly dumbest thing I have really heard in a long time. 
Wouldn't the demographic for liberal teachers being liberal be 100%? How is it 90% of liberal teachers are liberal you dumbass? Let me break it down for you incase you completely missed my point. What you basically said, is the demographic for dumb bryter posts is 90% of all dumb bryter posts.. wtf?
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I think you interpreted it wrong. Try reading it like this, "and liberal teachers/professors (over 90%
[of all college professors]
are liberal) are pushing socialist agendas on students in the classroom."
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Sat May 07, 2005 3:51 pm |
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ArchAngel
Joined: 18 Nov 2000
Posts: 2826
Location: Rochester, NY, USA |
thats horseshit was worded exactly like i spoke it when i wrote my post shit was changed dawg. thats some bullshit.
lick my hairy ass whoevers talkin smack about my GED.
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Sun May 08, 2005 12:13 am |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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Re: Concerning Conservative (in general)
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
My opinion is that the whole idea of a "conservative" party is just an infringement on people's rights.
Having conservative ideals, and bringing your family up that way is fine. But, if you are a government organization you should have the scope of vision to respect the fact that of the millions of people in your country, not everyone will want the same thing, and trying to force conservative ideals upon people is a violation of their rights. Thus being liberal is really the only alternative.
But thats just my opinion.
Your error here is assuming in your contention that people have certain rights, rights that you do not specify.
I'm sure any governental orginzation will recognize that not everyone in their country will want the same thing. However, legislation is such that it is "forced" upon the citizens of that country. Thats what laws are. There are many "alternative" governments/ forms of legislation s that have worked successfully throughout history, democracy is not the only way. But even in Democracies, it is quite possible and in many times the case that the majority of people want conservative ideals. Why? Because Consdertave ideals are founded in the general contentment of the times, and fear that policy change may detract from that contentment. Exactly how you call preserving the status quo a violation of anyone's rights is completely unsubstantiated. Being liberal is most definately not the only alternative, and your argument here is suprisingly weak.
In order to prove your point, you have to define what rights you are talking about, and how the existence of a conservative party is a violation of these rights..
But if you're trying in some (very unsuccessful) way to take a jab at the Bush adminstration, you should probably realize that it is not conservative, but in fact a very radical administration.
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Sun May 08, 2005 6:56 pm |
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Sappy
Joined: 07 Oct 2000
Posts: 1235
Location: NYC |
A big problem is that our electoral system is pluralist and is too slow to embrace post-materialist issues while instead focusing almost solely on the socio-economic (perhaps religious too) cleavages in the United States. Issues like the environment for example are not liberal or conservative: look at Billy Reilly, for example, who is a total conservative insane douchebag who happens to be an environmentalist and vehementaly against the Republicans' stance on refusing to address fuel regulation issues.
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Mon May 09, 2005 7:10 pm |
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GleiP
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 255
Location: Sweden |
In Sweden both the republican- and democratparty are seen as extreme rightwing partys, close to facism..
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GleiP
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Thu May 12, 2005 11:51 am |
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Ocram-OB
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 2600
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in which one are you in?
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Thu May 12, 2005 4:18 pm |
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{Lashiec}
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 368
Location: Moscow, Idaho |
quote:
But if you're trying in some (very unsuccessful) way to take a jab at the Bush adminstration, you should probably realize that it is not conservative, but in fact a very radical administration.
wow bizatch got one right
and gleip, that is why sweden will be overrun by mongrels in 50 years =D
edit: Sure the more liberal european countries, and canada as well can consider the US a right wing fascist menace, but at least we dont have laws like this on the books:
"... In Sweden, sermons are explicitly covered by an anti-hate-speech law passed to protect homosexuals. The Swedish chancellor of justice said any reference to the Bible's stating that homosexuality is sinful might be a criminal offense, and a Pentecostal minister is already facing charges."
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/040419/19john.htm
not at issue is the validity of the statements made, but rather the reactions to them.
real
progressive. what a huge step backwards - speak in a manner that is contrary to the notions of tolerance (public opinion) and you will be charged with inciting.
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Thu May 12, 2005 4:39 pm |
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ThePanacea
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 1466
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quote:
wow bizatch got one right
You quoted Ash there. I agree with Ash in that the Bush administration is hardly conservative, though I don't really think all the views are all that radical. It's just that he's authoritarian across the board (instead of just on social issues), and so he doesn't fit into conservative.
Last edited by ThePanacea on Fri May 13, 2005 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thu May 12, 2005 6:08 pm |
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ghostnuke
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 5668
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quote:
Originally posted by {Lashiec}
edit: Sure the more liberal european countries, and canada as well can consider the US a right wing fascist menace, but at least we dont have laws like this on the books...
We have laws denying rights to minority groups (state gay marriage laws), stickers on textbooks that say evolution is only a theory, and up until very recently it was illegal to get a blowjob in most of the country. I think we're competing with Sweden just fine.
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Fri May 13, 2005 7:56 am |
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ThePanacea
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 1466
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I'm just curious, but for the liberals, is there any kind of government intervention that you really do like, short of protecting life, liberty and property directly?
Ignore the basic redistribution of wealth and taxes and focus a little more on social issues. For example, democrats are generally pro-gun control and pro-affirmative action. Also, recently the FDA banned ephedra (the courts overturned this btw). Is this something Democrats support (not ephedra specifically, but the banning of substances/foods/supplements)?
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Fri May 13, 2005 9:53 am |
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JiGGa_MaN
Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 10014
Location: Future home of the Stanley cup, Ottawa |
Nope. I am liberal in the sense where I dont want Government interfereing with my decisions. I dont want censorship, I dont want certain products to be illegal (Pot). Although again, Its too hard to say you are liberal across the board.
I dont want Coke to be legal. I dont want Child Porn to be available to people. So it all depends on the issue at hand, before I decide whether my stance is Liberal or Conservative. Thats why I think Partisan Politics are a sham.
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
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Fri May 13, 2005 1:20 pm |
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