Hi kith,
I am kind of an intermediate player who strives to learn the way of the humans.For starters i need advice on the following for humans.

1.What are the ways that is avaiable to stop or maybe go on equal footing with a 2 haller.

2.Is it possible to stay in one hall and get to keep and stay and make loads of knights and expand quickly to the next mine the moment you have sufficent knights to withstand an enemy orc attack.Then get to castle to get to mages.

3.I read from your guide that you'll needed atleast 2 to 2 inventors to produce about 20 flyers or so.So I need a genral guide as to how many peons you can channel to wood and to gold.I normally start putting peons on wood when my lumber goes below 1500.

4.When is the best time to expand is another question I have in mind all the time.I normally get caught up while expanding.

5.Is gryphons necessary for defensive purpose.

Thats what I seem to have in mind.Hope you could kindly assist me in this one.Thanks

Gyphons in my opinion are horrible for defense. They have that fire ball thing that goes past the target and hits other things such as your units or your buildings. I try to consider my self a defensive player when i play other humans i usually have lots of Guard Towers(Not Canon due to air attacks) and alot of archers. Archers my not be as strong as footmen or knights but only 8(i think) foot men or knights can attack one enemy where as you could have 20 archers effectively attacking one unit. I usually go with a 6 man footman/knight line backed up by a bunch of archers.

"A good offense is the best defense."


------------------
(DC)Draco-Dawgg
dracodawgg@dawggclan.cjb.net
Dawgg Clan Elite
ICQ Number: 65575954

I'm not kith, but I do have some advice for you

1. Depends on the map. You either have to stop the 2 haller w/ cats (not a good idea unless you're efficient), or a chop rush... if you're rushing. But generally humans don't seem to rush as well as orcs due to the early gold-intensive weapon upgrades which leaves you a little strapped for gold. If both you and your enemy are 2halling, then the main thing is just to out-expand them. If you can't do that then you'll be 'equal' such that the orc player gets lust just as you get your mages w/ blizzard. Really need more specifics about map, and your starting strategy. If you dont' stop or outexpand a 2haller early then you will be far out-resourced to do anything.

2. Why would you want to wait for the orcs to attack you? Keep an offensive mind One common strategy on maps with small mines (Plains of Snow w/ 40k mines for example) is to not go castle until you've secured an expansion or two, because castle upgrade is expensive, and if you're going castle off of one mine, then you will run out of steam as you get your mages because your mine will blow either halfway to castle or a little after you get castle. Either way w/o an expansion you're screwed. If you stay at keep longer to get more knights, it may allow you to hit an orc player *before* they get lust, which is the 'easiest' way to defeat lust anyway

They'll be busy going fort (if no expansion they're screwed), and you can just go in, outnumbering their ogres. Again, depending on the map, expansion time is gauged by starting mine size. On Gow you can afford to expand later because mines are large (60k), but on pos you need to expand somewhere between hall-keep and keep-castle or you will *DIE*.

3. It depends on your strategy. But keep building peons and you can't go wrong. There are specific situations in some rushes where you need to peon stop to support a certain number of grunts.. but if you're 2halling, then peons peons.. I really don't think there is a specific point which you start putting peons on gold/wood (assuming this is high res.).. however, generally if you're 2halling you will have a mill early, so whenever your gold can support your unit production you can put peons on wood. Try to have a mill whenever you chop.. more efficiency = more resources = more production.

4. If you can contain the enemy for even a few min. Expand. When your mine goes to 20k or below.. Expand. Generally as early as possible without getting wiped out and wasting resources It doesn't matter how early you get an expansion as long as you can set it up via wallin and prevent the enemy from disrupting your gold.

5. Gryphons are not *necessary* but I like to build 1 or 2 to annoy orc players. Alot of orc players are dumb and just build ogres.. because.. well, they just love bloodlust. Gryphons can fly all over and harass peon lines, minor annoyances. But they are also very good for scattering ogres. Orc players like to group their ogres in nice little blocks so that they can lust up. A single shot from a gryphon will scatter those ogres like a bowling ball does pins Obviously if you're low on money (or expect to be low on money because you haven't expanded or whatever reason), then don't get gryphons and shift spending onto mages/knights/expanding.

And one last thing... Please, please PLEASE don't heed the advice from the above poster's quote: "A good offense is a strong defense." <---- this will get you killed more times than you will care to remember. A good offense is.. a good offense A good defense is... a good offense. Why do you need defense if you keep the fight in the enemy's town? Food for thought :\

---
Noss
Shadow Council

Okay, first off, im no pro with humans, but I spent a good 2 months playing humans non stop on heat.net... I know heat.net has been known as the least challenging gaming service after kali and zone.. but It does have its good players, believe me..

I am going to try and answer your questions to the best of my ability..

1.What are the ways that is avaiable to stop or maybe go on equal footing with a 2 haller.

Well first off when I was human, I usually always dualed, I would even dual 12/2 and put up chokes with an archer behind em... the reason for this, is it makes the orc player worry a bit less about lust and more of trying to get rid of one of your bases... Also, when i would dual, i would try and keep hidden rax outside my base, with a couple peons (1 or 2) so I can kill incoming cats, and at the same time build units without worrying about chopping out... but anyways, lets say you are dualing, and the orc player is dualing... this is usually what i would do...

First thing I would do, is i would look at the situation... and ask myself 3 questions

1.) Is this player respectable, and atleast an average player

answer to yes: well this means the person will have 1 or 2 cats, instead of a couple towers.. so this means that catting wont do much good since he will be prepared by the time i kill his cat/wallin.. so I usually go to 2 sappers with about 9-18 knights.. and hope I get him in the transition of hold/fort

answer to no: I look to see if he has towers or cats, if towers, i do a 2 cat rush, meaning i build 2 cats, and go attack the tower and bust his wallin... If he has cats, I do what I did for 'Yes'

2.) Is the persons dual connected, meaning is the base one big base, or 2 seperated bases

This is an important question, because if the dual is connected, this means you should concentrate on the part that will most likely be the most important to the player... for example... whats more important? s9 or 9 on garden of war, of course 9 is because of the gold mine being 2x the size as s9... so your gonna wanna bust 9 first, and if possible, hit the peons in 9 and run *quickly* down to s9 and hit peons there, then take out any important buildings..

If dual is not connected, it usually means he is at 2 big mines, like 9 and 11, usually I will bust the one with the blacksmith in it, because the smith is needed for ogres, and therefore is very important, while killing 1 rax aint gonna do to much damage to the orc place, since he may have another 5 in the other base..

3.) How close is the dualer.

This isnt to important, but it can be, usually, if the dualer is far away, I wont bother with cat rushes since cats are patheticly slow, by the time i get there he will prolly be fort, so i go for saps..


2.Is it possible to stay in one hall and get to keep and stay and make loads of knights and expand quickly to the next mine the moment you have sufficent knights to withstand an enemy orc attack. Then get to castle to get to mages.

While I have won games with mass knights, I find it as being a huge waste of money, and very ineffective, I would rather wait for mages with Blizzard/Slow and have 18 knights that can fight and have about 16 remaining, then having 30 knights, no mages, and losing about 20 it saves a whole lot of money

3.I read from your guide that you'll needed atleast 2 to 2 inventors to produce about 20 flyers or so.So I need a genral guide as to how many peons you can channel to wood and to gold.I normally start putting peons on wood when my lumber goes below 1500.

Well, When I 2 hall, i usually go keep with plentiful choppers/miners, I will usually have about 14 miners and 12 choppers, and continue to make choppers/miners while upping to keep, by that time you should have plentiful gold/wood for inventors and more barracks... and to start finishing your weapons/shields upgrades

4.When is the best time to expand is another question I have in mind all the time.I normally get caught up while expanding.

When your human, expanding is winning, the more expansions u have, is one less for the orc, and more money for knights and mages... I expand whenever I have the money to plop down a hall and a couple barracks/mage towers and some guard towers for defense... so yeah, expanding is always imporant, and do expand whenever you can...

5.Is gryphons necessary for defensive purpose.

Gryphons are not completely nessesary, ive won many games w/out them, although i find them to be very effective, because the second an orc player gives an ogre a command other than to attack somthing specific, and a bird hits him, he will run 3 or 4 spots, and just stop... and wont do anything...


Well, I hope that helped a bit, just remember that humans are incredibly involved, and require alot of time and experimenting... and kith/axo please add to this, I know i prolly left out a bunch of details

Peace,
Sypher

Damn this is a long quesiton hehehe good thing I'm bored!

1-There's PLENTY of ways to go on even footing with a two halling. First off, if you aren't two halling yourself, the only way to even WIN vs a two haller is you HAVE to kill one of his bases (or hurt him really bad at both bases). Usually in 1v1 games I tend to peon scout around because then if you check spots early you often times can get a cannon tower up on his wallin and be hitting him with grunts before his catapult can be of any use. (Check the range on the cannon and make sure you build it so it will hit any peons behind his wall in that can repair). Also I like 2 cat rushes. I do them a bit different than everyone else, but it also lets me get the cats faster and go stronghold faster, however its only good vs non two hall rushers and in 1v1 games. If you don't know how to do a 2 cat rush then ask axo and he'll probably put it up in the QOTD area.

2- As for this, there are lots of games where I've one halled (usually I rush though, not just a straight one hall power), and what I do is a bring like 11 peons (pulled from gold) and I run them to a mine and repair a hall there really quick. It works good vs someone who's doing a 2 rax rush (if you only did a 1 rax rush). Just make sure they don't find you're expansion. But a one hall power is generally not a good way to try and beat an orc player. You won't have enough money to support knights and mages off of one hall.

3- The two inventors is something I only do on maps like No Way Out of this Maze. You MUST have at least one inventor building flyers. The only way a human player can even be good is if he has all his routes of attack (that the enemy will take) to his base scouted with flying machines. If you don't then you're going to be doing last second blizzes which don't work. You need to be able to anticipate where he's going to attack. Its often a good idea to keep the flyers in the trees or out of range of his walking ogres so he won't know that YOU know he's coming.

4- The best time to expand (if you're one halling) is generally when you have around 10 thousand left in your mine. It also depends how the game is going, sometimes its too close to even be able to afford an expansion until your mine blows up. When I two hall I generally try and get a 3rd hall as I go fort. This isn't always the case, but I usually have enough wood to get a 3rd hall as I go castle.

5- Gryphons are a luxury that I can rarely afford in a realistic setting. It would be nice to be able to use them more, but gryphons, like exorcism, are a rareity in most games I play when I'm humans.

Hope this all helped.
If you have any more questions.....ask!

------------------
-Kith-Kanin-

I wont bother replying with a lot of junk you probably wont understand. So here's my advice. I played Kith 1vs1 a long time ago, and dualed 4/5. Kith peon scouted me and dualed 9/11. Well, I thought I did pretty well, but his humans just owned me. Anyway, Kith told me a tip I learned to never forget. If the opponent is dualing, then you dont need d. For instance, since he saw I wasnt rushin, he didnt need any defense. I, on the other hand, had cats and towers - slowed me long enough to give him the upper hand. Scout around, if the enemy isnt attacking you anytime soon, dont waste time on defense, unless your waaaay behind and need like 4045480 guard towers..in which case your prolly dead anyhow. Hope this helps =/

------------------
Mage Guild

Hi to all who responded to my thread.I am grateful and thanksful for all the tips and advices you guys gave me.Thanks a millon and have a nice day.

[SuBZeRo]