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foonat
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 7716
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i just started playing again today after a month of no sc2, 3-2 so far!
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:51 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
foonat must maphack if he thinks he's above dying to a DT rush.
ghostnuke trolling in a message board of a game he doesn't even own again.
double high five
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:33 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
foonat must maphack if he thinks he's above dying to a DT rush.
ghostnuke trolling in a message board of a game he doesn't even own again.
double high five
my suggestion: cry more scrub
_________________
quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:48 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
hey whatever I have to do to appease your infatuation with me
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:26 pm |
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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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quote:
Originally posted by BanMe
I have no idea how to play against zerg on desert oasis (2 gate is too far to be effective and protoss can't really ever safely expand). Yeah that map is just fucking terrible. But yeah 2 gate and FE are my 2 vs Z strats. If I don't do either one of those, Z will shoot so far ahead with no pressure on him it's dumb.
If for some reason I get desert oasis I usually just 2 gate proxy. Send 1 probe right away, stop probes at 12 and chrono proxy. It wins 90% of the time on that map because they're so slow to scout due to the size of it.
Gay map.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:31 pm |
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foonat
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 7716
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every time someone has tried DT rushing me i have either a.) scouted it or b.) had an observer and raped it, with it causing minimal damage to me
maybe ur just bad
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:21 pm |
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foonat
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 7716
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i just thumb down desert oasis and scrap station
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:21 pm |
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7VlesSiah
Joined: 16 Feb 2001
Posts: 2456
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
I think protoss are OP too just because they have so many talentless insta-win strategies like DT and VR rushing. I don't think it's right that a single unit should be able to win a game. The only way you can survive an unforeseen DT or VR rush is pure luck.
If toss goes dts it is a hard tech with a lot of indicators and it will fail miserably with detection (banshees should fail as well but they are too fucking strong). Void rays are strong with serious weaknesses. Both zerg and terran are able to scout toss easily. The trouble with terran is that toss cannot scout them and terran are too versatile. They can be getting any units and not be committed to any tech tree like toss is.
You cannot have a race with no tech tree and 50,000 different types of units and spells. How the fuck can you defend everything when they can get any unit at the drop of a hat?
_________________
I have hacks in my brain and I use them.
Last edited by 7VlesSiah on Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:27 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
quote:
Originally posted by BanMe
I have no idea how to play against zerg on desert oasis (2 gate is too far to be effective and protoss can't really ever safely expand). Yeah that map is just fucking terrible. But yeah 2 gate and FE are my 2 vs Z strats. If I don't do either one of those, Z will shoot so far ahead with no pressure on him it's dumb.
If for some reason I get desert oasis I usually just 2 gate proxy. Send 1 probe right away, stop probes at 12 and chrono proxy. It wins 90% of the time on that map because they're so slow to scout due to the size of it.
Gay map.
Yeah that's what I always did, but its not fun.
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:28 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by foonat
i just thumb down desert oasis and scrap station
I like scrap station, I just FE ftw, rapes the shit out of zerg. I've been owning terran pretty decently there as well, easy to contain and out-expand. PvT is my easiest matchup recently
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:34 pm |
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Kyr.Luoson
Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 1696
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
ultralisks are now able to tear down planetary fortresses. I thought that was annoying, having 5 ultralisks ripping on a PF and having to micro them to attack the SVCs. From what I understand now they'll do splash damage so you don't have to worry about it. Also I think the BC nerf was necessary. I remember playing a game where one was chillin outside my base , the sole survivor of a huge fight with like 10% health left, and I kept sending small forces at it to finish it off, 20 units later it finally died.
I think protoss are OP too just because they have so many talentless insta-win strategies like DT and VR rushing. I don't think it's right that a single unit should be able to win a game. The only way you can survive an unforeseen DT or VR rush is pure luck.
I think your find it's actually talentless Terran's who lose to voidrays
They are easily countered by the first tire unit (marines) 5 marines at 250 minerals will beat a tier 2 voidray at 250 minerals and 150 gas
Not to mention if you have skill with vikings, a voidray will never touch the viking and will be kited to death
Both are easy to scout too with your imba scans because he will have alot less gateways and gateway units
Protoss players have to play in the totally in the dark since your walled off and observers are tech choice so deciding what to go after u built an obs is way to late.
Protoss are very vulnerable to pushes since there so hard to see if there coming
Marauders and marines are too strong late game, why do i need tier 3 units to beat tier 1 and 1.5 ?
Not sure how on earth you struggle with DTs if you are T or Z there emergency detection is a ton better then protoss
Terran have 4 ways to dectect and Zerg can make a dectecter basicly anywhere as soon as he has lair (which a good z would have well before DTs arrive)
The way balance is now
T > P/Z
P n Z fairly balanced - some thing slightly op on both sides
Go to TeamLiquid (biggest western community for sc2) It's pretty much general knowledge that Terran needs some big nerfs (thus this patch update from blizzard)
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:08 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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Was a pvp final at MLG tournament today, biggest prize pol of any sc2 tournament yet. As I said I rape Terran almost every time, and it's usually on the back of void rays.
The point of Void rays isn't to gg win - it's to force the terran to diversify their army as much as a protoss has to - as well as force them to make alot of units that are raped by standard toss units. Example - marines are owned by zealots and storm (and aren't nearly as imba as mauraders vs stalkers), and vikings will get eaten by blink stalkers + storm.
Here's my last few PvT's. The biggest Challenge I had from Terran before that involved hellion drops that crippled my economy
http://FlameAsh.homestead.com/files/PvT.rar
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:31 pm |
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Kyr.Luoson
Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 1696
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quote:
Originally posted by BanMe
Was a pvp final at MLG tournament today, biggest prize pol of any sc2 tournament yet. As I said I rape Terran almost every time, and it's usually on the back of void rays.
The point of Void rays isn't to gg win - it's to force the terran to diversify their army as much as a protoss has to - as well as force them to make alot of units that are raped by standard toss units. Example - marines are owned by zealots and storm (and aren't nearly as imba as mauraders vs stalkers), and vikings will get eaten by blink stalkers + storm. I'll post some replays soon of me roflstomping terrans easily
A common build is 1/1/1 so your not forcing them to build anything different
Yourll find zealots own marines in small numbers but once stim has been added zealots are completely useless and good luck getting storm anytime soon if you have sunk your gas into voidrays, if you dont do any damage with the voidrays you will be ran over by a 1 base push
Voidrays are the best weapon pre storm/collosi though
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:52 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
Anyway i'm not saying every post there is word of god but there's a recurring theme that constantly keeps coming up "TERRAN IS IMBA" 10 fold any of the other races... I wonder why?
Because at lower levels, the basic tier 1-2 units in combat with mediocre micro and "common" play styles - terran bio is stronger. In my experience though, I think it can be overcome
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:12 pm |
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Kyr.Luoson
Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 1696
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quote:
Originally posted by BanMe
quote:
Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
Anyway i'm not saying every post there is word of god but there's a recurring theme that constantly keeps coming up "TERRAN IS IMBA" 10 fold any of the other races... I wonder why?
Because at lower levels, the basic tier 1-2 units in combat with mediocre micro and "common" play styles - terran bio is stronger. In my experience though, I think it can be overcome
You cant say it's just lower levels complaining
Top level zergs are also complaining like Idra/Dimgna/Artosis, are some off the top of my head and i belive a pro gamer whos name i forgot just swapped from zerg to terran since he cant compete with terran
One of the best if not the best protoss in the world (Tester) has also said terran is too strong
Granted i think PVT is more balanced then TvZ currently is.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:17 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
DTs and VRs do such heavy DPS that you can't stop them if you don't see them coming. They come in, rape your shit, and the game is over. You can't counter them because once they're there, it's already too late to do anything about it.
You can argue that scouting makes them easy to stop or just doing a safe build that counters both of them, but what if the protoss player builds 2 more gateways in the corner of the map , great now your observer can watch his 4 gate proxy run you over.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:21 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
One of the best if not the best protoss in the world (Tester) has also said terran is too strong
Idra and them play zerg, we're talking about PvT.
Tester may be good but at the end of the day he's just another dude who wants to really wants to win with Protoss, he has no strong interest or moral code stopping him from every being wrong or partial about balance statements.
Over the course of BW, the metagame swings in the favor of different races all the time.
Once I see the way I play PvT as more widely adopted, and see if even when well executed it is unviable - you'll convince me a bit more. But again like I said, PvP in MLG Finals today - alot of top Terran players REALLY wanted to win that - and got owned by Protoss.
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:27 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
anyway I'm not really arguing that DTs are OP, I'm just theorizing that the combined threat of DTs and VRs makes protoss very hard to deal with mid game vs a crafty player. It's basically rolling the dice. Most toss players that I'm up against build their buildings in the 4 corners of their base to avoid scans anyway so if you're terran, you've got to get reapers and if you're zerg you have to be lucky enough to get your overlord/seer across their base without being sniped by stalkers/sentries. and like I mentioned in my previous post, you have no idea what they have out on the playing field , you could scout a 2 gate and say "hmm somethings' up" then they build 2 more gateways somewhere you would never find.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:46 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
anyway I'm not really arguing that DTs are OP, I'm just theorizing that the combined threat of DTs and VRs makes protoss very hard to deal with mid game vs a crafty player. It's basically rolling the dice. Most toss players that I'm up against build their buildings in the 4 corners of their base to avoid scans anyway so if you're terran, you've got to get reapers and if you're zerg you have to be lucky enough to get your overlord/seer across their base without being sniped by stalkers/sentries. and like I mentioned in my previous post, you have no idea what they have out on the playing field , you could scout a 2 gate and say "hmm somethings' up" then they build 2 more gateways somewhere you would never find.
A good terran does not have any problems vs DT's, and can deal with Void rays at least to the extent they are only annoying and don't kill him.
Your logic applies exactly back to protoss. Terran could be going banshees, or for a fast bio attack, or heavy marines + tank (which means he doesnt need to break up your ramp, just secure the front of it). As protoss you need to be able to try to figure out which of these is coming from just stepping on the terran's ramp, and then getting an observer out as fast as you can - which , if a terran player wants, he can wait for and kill asap with a scan, meaning toss just wasted 50 / 100.
Dt's are a heavy investment and CAN work, but they are a unit that relies entirely on the negligence of your opponent's strategy, and are thus a big risk and entirely scoutable and counterable
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
Last edited by BanMe on Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:52 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
Also I don't usually VR rush but when I do, it's on a big map where I have more time to deal with their counter and I never hit with less than 2 VRs unless I know for certain they have nothing to counter it.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:53 pm |
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Kyr.Luoson
Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 1696
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Just watched one of ur replays ash, nice style alltho my point is proven by your own replay
The one on XelNaga, you beat off his first 2/3 attacks.. He keeps massing marines, finally gets stim and goes for a big attack
You have had an expo up for quite awhile, double the income way more workers
You have 45 workers to his 21 (you havent touched his base yet ethier)
Army sizes before battle
Ash
2500 mineral
1150 gas
5 Voidrays
tons of speed zealots and some orbs
Terran
2650 mineral
0 gas
Pure marines
Out come? you lose your natural, pushed right into your main and your only saving grace to defeating a tier 1 army is you had 2 templar (tier 3) which barly just saved you
Now please explain to me how a 1 basing non teching terran with a smaller resourse amount of units athat are all the first unit terran can make and half your worker count can totally runs your army over is balanced in the slightest.
Granted you won in the end with tier 3 very gas intensive teching storm to beat a tier 1 army that requires no gas. You were just simply more skilled way more skilled yet he almost won due to terran being overpowered.
Last edited by Kyr.Luoson on Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:00 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
Just watched one of ur replays ash, nice style alltho my point is proven by your own replay
The one on XelNaga, you beat off his first 2/3 attacks.. He keeps massing marines, finally gets stim and goes for a counter attack
You have had an expo up for quite awhile, double the income
Him no expo
Army sizes before battle
Ash
2500 mineral
1150 gas
5 Voidrays
tons of speed zealots and some orbs
Terran
2600 mineral
0 gas
Pure marines
Out come? you lose your natural, pushed right into your main and your only saving grace to defeating a tier 1 army is you had 2 templar (tier 3) which barly just saved you
Now please explain to me how a 1 basing non teching terran with a smaller resourse amount of units that are all the first unit terran can make totally runs your army over is balanced in the slightest.
Granted you won with storm but that's not my point
He did have tanks - and it was clearly a planned out timing attack that COMPLETELY "counters" void rays - which I was counting on. The fact that he purely "countered" my strategy and I still won shows at least it's not imbalanced in his favor, imo.
Also, I slacked on marine defense after his first couple attacks - I didn't execpt him to come yet again with such a huge amount of marines, or I would have prepared better. I should have scouted and seen it coming - was my bad execution that he killed my expo. Some sentries would have helped me out there as well
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:03 pm |
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Kyr.Luoson
Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 1696
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quote:
Originally posted by BanMe
quote:
Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
Just watched one of ur replays ash, nice style alltho my point is proven by your own replay
The one on XelNaga, you beat off his first 2/3 attacks.. He keeps massing marines, finally gets stim and goes for a counter attack
You have had an expo up for quite awhile, double the income
Him no expo
Army sizes before battle
Ash
2500 mineral
1150 gas
5 Voidrays
tons of speed zealots and some orbs
Terran
2600 mineral
0 gas
Pure marines
Out come? you lose your natural, pushed right into your main and your only saving grace to defeating a tier 1 army is you had 2 templar (tier 3) which barly just saved you
Now please explain to me how a 1 basing non teching terran with a smaller resourse amount of units that are all the first unit terran can make totally runs your army over is balanced in the slightest.
Granted you won with storm but that's not my point
He did have tanks - and it was clearly a planned out timing attack that COMPLETELY "counters" void rays - which I was counting on. The fact that he purely "countered" my strategy and I still won shows at least it's not imbalanced in his favor, imo.
Also, I slacked on marine defense after his first couple attacks - I didn't execpt him to come yet again with such a huge amount of marines, or I would have prepared better. I should have scouted and seen it coming - was my bad execution that he killed my expo. Some sentries would have helped me out there as well
I was refering to the battle at 15 mins not the first push with a few tanks. His mirco let him lose that battle, he couldnt even focus ur voidrays on the cliff yet he still keept fighting.
Reguardless if you were ready for the push or not, you had the more teched and more resourse strong army yet only killed half his army and would have lost had you not made those 2 templars.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:06 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyr.Luoson
Reguardless if you were ready for the push or not, you had the more teched and more resourse strong army yet only killed half his army and would have lost had you not made those 2 templars.
remember saying this?
"They are easily countered by the first tire unit (marines) 5 marines at 250 minerals will beat a tier 2 voidray at 250 minerals and 150 gas "
Yeah I had a higher tier - but it's still a tech with a lower tier counter. If I had the same tier tech to counter marines, such as templar or collossus or even speedlots + armor + sentry - I really would have rolled him. The point that replay proves is that voidrays are a solid backbone - even vs. the best counter against them.
And they are better against things which own standard toss play, such as marauders, banshees, ravens, mech, etc. The #1 reason I open Voidray is just to stay alive early. Especially with the charge trick on your own buildings, your just about impossible to kill, and dangerous to contain.
_________________
Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:13 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
well terran and toss can be very hard to scout, I guess my big thing is just the fact that you can't outmicro 2 VRs obliterating your command center in 5 seconds or 2 DTs ripping your base to shreds when you can't see them. DTs are obviously a lot riskier vs terran because of a potential wall off but even if the t has one scan, that's not enough to kill 2 DTs if they split them up, plus the fact that a smart toss will wait for a mule drop or scan before attacking. I just don't like how they're the only 2 units in the game that you can't even fight if you're not prepared. And they both can be thrown out at roughly the same time of the game, by the same race.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:27 pm |
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Kyr.Luoson
Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 1696
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Vikings are the best counter not marines as they can endless kite your voidrays if they have any skill.
Also the reason you won that first battle was because he had a really bad position (voidrays on the cliff) and he had no mirco, dont think he even seiged his tanks or was way to late. If you were in the open or you couldn't charge ur voidrays on ur own buildings/rocks those voidrays would of been toast as proven when he ran over your natural with a smaller resource sized army
Now i'm not saying voidrays arent the best way to open vs T as that's what i do myself. I just think Terran needs a few nerfs in certain areas.
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Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:35 pm |
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