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Kith-Kanin
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4449
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Most aren't even using immortals anymore to beat the terran first push. Just mass up sentries/zeals/stalkers and you can beat it.
Frocefield half his force so that your zealots can close the distance and you should be able to defend it and push back in on him.
As for the zerg bug--yeah you can beat it by going defensive as toss or terran. The problem is that if a zerg DOESN'T do it, then they have complete map control and you're fucked anyways.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:11 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
if you have to pull 10 workers because as i said you are worried about losing the fight then i don't understand how u can't see a significance in that. You must be one of those players like jon that leaves as soon as they lose a unit.
no obviously you have to use workers sometimes. i'm saying "jeez marauders isn't so bad, just pull 10 workers off your mineral line!" isn't very convincing. if you have to pull workers off your mineral line to survive then you're probably being outplayed at that point in the game or something is imbalanced
quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
edit: also the phoenix thing is just given one circumstance of many that might play out. if u have him cockblocked with sentries at his choke he has no choice but to dropship right? or he'll get siege tanks which takes forever but your main concern with marauders is that they rape you early correct?
please tell me how you're supposed to afford fast phoenix when you're making enough sentries to block his ramp indefinitely
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
Last edited by hassan-i-sabbah on Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:14 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
Most aren't even using immortals anymore to beat the terran first push. Just mass up sentries/zeals/stalkers and you can beat it.
Frocefield half his force so that your zealots can close the distance and you should be able to defend it and push back in on him.
that's patch 8. terran first push is going to come earlier now because slow is cheaper and faster to research. in patch 8 you could do this because either slow wasn't done yet, or if it was stim wasn't either. there was tension between having to choose between conc and stim in the early game. now conc costs too little and researches too fast. you must not have had a lot of experience with pre-patch 8 marauders as toss because even with forcefield its fucking tough. you can pull it off with forcefield sometimes, but you're having to micro and think really fast while the terran just kites you. i'm not complaining about having to micro, but one unit shouldn't allow you to kite an entire army to death. and this isn't even getting into cost concerns, with sentries costing 4x the gas marauders do
quote:
Originally posted by Kith-Kanin
As for the zerg bug--yeah you can beat it by going defensive as toss or terran. The problem is that if a zerg DOESN'T do it, then they have complete map control and you're fucked anyways.
again i'm not saying the zerg bug isn't horribly unbalanced, it is, but uh, isn't that what scouting is for? if you see him with an early pool hes going for the exploit, or some other semi-all in, so you defend against that and then you win. if he doesn't have an early pool he's probably doing a fast expand. do you not scout or something
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:17 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
well I can argue about the reapers. as far as phoenix.. u can afford them if u decide that they're going to be useful. What I'm saying is that you can force them into different scenarios other than playing sim city for 5 minutes and clashing in the middle of the map while your army gets obliterated because you're playing the way the terran wants to play.
I played a few placement matches the other day and I got terran twice vs protoss and both games I did the exact same thing. I walled off early made 1 marine got a few marauder raxes built a factory with dual addon replaced it with my starport and landed 8 marauders with stim pack/conc shells at the edge of their base and plowed right through their forces with 4-6 marauders still standing to finish them off. Meanwhile I was thinking about how I could have been stopped.
How are you going to stop this from happening to you if you're not being aggressive early?
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:29 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
well I can argue about the reapers. as far as phoenix.. u can afford them if u decide that they're going to be useful. What I'm saying is that you can force them into different scenarios other than playing sim city for 5 minutes and clashing in the middle of the map while your army gets obliterated because you're playing the way the terran wants to play.
i'm sure all the good protoss players would love to hear how phoenix is actually useful against terran and not almost completely useless. you don't just "decide" that a unit is going to be useful, it has to actually have a use, then you can decide to make it useful. there's no way phoenix is going to be useful in tvp at that stage in the game except for making picking off a few workers before he makes one viking out of the starport he has anyway and kills all your phoenixes with it. once that happens your stargate is useful for...hmm, nothing
quote:
Originally posted by turtleman@can
I played a few placement matches the other day and I got terran twice vs protoss and both games I did the exact same thing. I walled off early made 1 marine got a few marauder raxes built a factory with dual addon replaced it with my starport and landed 8 marauders with stim pack/conc shells at the edge of their base and plowed right through their forces with 4-6 marauders still standing to finish them off. Meanwhile I was thinking about how I could have been stopped.
How are you going to stop this from happening to you if you're not being aggressive early?
probably by not being a copper noob which is usually what people end up playing against in placement matches
some zeals, sentry, and 1-2 IMMORTALS (which you should have at least one even with build time nerf) would stop that cold. only way that works is if toss is an idiot and don't get an obs as soon as the robo facility is done and doesn't see it coming a mile away
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:32 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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yeah i kinda agree, the only thing i feel like gives zerg interesting dynamics is mutas really. infestor changes are cool but as an overall caster infestor seems kind of blah. i kind of like the way zerg is geared towards fast expansion but at the same time all you usually do is make hordes of units. i think they might fix the macro mechanic/portrait thing though, it really seems like an unintentional fuck up and with so many other unintentional fuck ups in this patch it seems even more likely
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:40 pm |
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turtleman@can
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Posts: 8841
Location: Canada |
yeah i feel the same way about zerg whenever I get them. to be honest right now I'm starting to feel like Ash about the game (disinterested) in general. I just don't really feel like my actions matter as much in sc2. When I'm playing bw/war2 I'm at the edge of my seat because I know that if I stall for a few seconds it could cost me the game whereas I feel like in sc2 I could go afk for a few minutes come back and still win although this could just be my lack of sleep talking.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:14 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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yeah i think it is, the game requires at least as much attention as bw/war2. the interface improvements and macro mechanics just mean you have to spend that time injecting larva/chronoboosting/muleing instead of clicking on every single building you have one at a time to build something and manually right clicking workers on resources
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:16 pm |
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Aerasal
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3437
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i really don't know why they took out the lurker. i hope they aren't saving it for the first exp.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:22 pm |
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Sypher
Joined: 18 Sep 2000
Posts: 5698
Location: Detroit, MI |
quote:
Originally posted by Aerasal
i really don't know why they took out the lurker. i hope they aren't saving it for the first exp.
Lurker removal: It conflicted with other units already in the game: roaches, infestors, banelings. The lurker was originally pushed to tier 3. However at tier 3, detection was plentiful so they felt like the unit didn’t have a specific enough of a role.
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"I tend to thougoughly enjoy my encounters significantly more with 120+ types, as I find them more stimulating. 100-110 people are okay too operating at full capacity." - Paper_Boy
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:36 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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Can't really make a zealot before stalker in PvT, unless you somehow know for sure he won't make an early reaper. Opening to marauder rush is often reapers anyway, so much for being weak early game.
However you had the right idea with the wrong unit. I was very successful "stalker rushing" terrans. The key is doing it fast with 2 gates as an opening not necessarily an end game. You might think marauders rape stalkers but the point is to chip away at terran infantry health, which does not regenerate, and then move back unit when shields run low / out. With some nice micro u can harass the shit out of his army early. Though I agree about the concussive shot should still take longer to get - feels like someone at blizzard was reaaaaaly married to that early conc shot, even though it pretty much breaks early game horrifically (and is, in general, not a very well balanced or meta-game improving ability).
Pheonix sounds pretty stupid, but I had some moderate success with early void ray, it will rape marauders and in small numbers can pick off marines pretty until they are massed. If you get a void ray in his base and he doesn't already have 3+ marines, you can kill them as they pop as you pump more void rays. Actaully beat a #1 terran with a void ray rush, xzaioxzaio or something
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Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:10 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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yeah see that stuff makes sense. i'm not totally sure that that stalker stuff is *optimal,* but it does sound viable. i might give it a try if the new immortals turn out to be too weak vs marauders. only thing i worry about is if current conc grenade can be researched early enough, that could end an early stalker harass full stop
is the void ray game you're talking about the one you posted on here? if it is you played that one well and those void rays definitely were good for the early harass you used them for, after that they didn't seem to do a lot though iirc. i'm not knocking you though you definitely outplayed the guy and the void rays were good in that game, it just seems pretty situational. lately it seems more and more terrans are going for at least one rax with a reactor to supplement their marauders with marines. i definitely agree they're a fuck of a lot more useful vs terran than phoenix though, which is pretty much never useful vs terran
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:15 pm |
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~Dakine..HeX
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4062
Location: salt lake city |
i was hoping for a zealot buff of some kind (like move charge from the twilight to the core), zealots are a cheesy unit almost that are only useful for unscouted rushes vs P/Z, zealots dont ever work vs terran
and phoenixes are still basically never useful.
i dont have as much of a problem with phoenix being low utility, because its a specialty unit, a niche unit. but zealots are an important pillar of most toss armies (or should be), but there is just no reason to make zealots out of your warpgates since sentry stalker are better at everything
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:45 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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quote:
Originally posted by ~Dakine..HeX
i was hoping for a zealot buff of some kind (like move charge from the twilight to the core), zealots are a cheesy unit almost that are only useful for unscouted rushes vs P/Z, zealots dont ever work vs terran
and phoenixes are still basically never useful.
i dont have as much of a problem with phoenix being low utility, because its a specialty unit, a niche unit. but zealots are an important pillar of most toss armies (or should be), but there is just no reason to make zealots out of your warpgates since sentry stalker are better at everything
thats really not true. mid-late game you need zealots in just about any match up, they're really good meat shields and do pretty good damage too
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:33 pm |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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nah it was a different game, i flat out killed him with the void rays - but this will only happen if you catch him with no marines. The one I posted was more of an adjustment illustrating that you can still get something done with them even when they DO have marines.
Remember the stalker opening isn't necessarily an endgame and you shouldn't write immortals off down the road when doing it. However if you feel like it's working, you can press your advantage by getting quick blink.
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Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:14 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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oic
and yeah i realize what you're saying, its just i feel like a significant amount of stalkers might slow down your initial immortal push, so you might not want to bank on taking him out/hurting him bad when you get a couple immortals out. obviously though if you can hurt him enough with the stalker harass that makes up for it, or if you can keep up the stalker thing with blink.
last patch i was getting matched with a lot of mid-level plat players and had a lot of success with terran by pushing on around my second immortal with mostly zealots and sentries, so i'll probably just have to adjust that. last patch i pretty much made no stalkers early game except for my first one to guard against reaper harass. i honestly think last patch that push was a little too strong and immortal build time nerf might have been needed to make it not so strong, i'm just afraid now with the faster conc shells on top of that its going to be rough :\
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:20 pm |
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Aerasal
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3437
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looks like not being able to click on the wireframe was intentional and not gonna be changed any time soon, not surprising tho. i hardly play p so I don't how it affects them so much but I really really hate it as zerg. I wouldn't mind the change if there was at least some decision making in the process and the queen had other useful abilities that could be used throughout the game, but as it stands, you just gotta mindlessly, repetitively click every 40 secs the entire length of the game or you simply don't have larva.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:03 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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yeah and its really, really bad for zerg. toss it sucks but its not that big a deal, you miss a few chronos you go back to your base, have 100 energy saved up, and chrono a bunch of different shit. you miss a larva inject with zerg and there's only one hatch to inject and you can only do one injection at a time. i'm glad i'm not a zerg player because blizzard has really shit on them constantly in this beta :\
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:46 pm |
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~Dakine..HeX
Joined: 15 Sep 2000
Posts: 4062
Location: salt lake city |
quote:
Originally posted by hassan-i-sabbah
thats really not true. mid-late game you need zealots in just about any match up, they're really good meat shields and do pretty good damage too
zealots are good meat shields, they do good damage in theory, but against most micro they don't get a real great chance at doing that damage. they can be very cost effective with sentries to help corral opposing units but thats not always possible, especially early game. they aren't terrible, just underwhelming
one thing i want to try more when I have some time to play, is to hallucinate up a gang of zealots to meatshield for you (mixed in with a few real zealots) and just get in the way.
sentry is so far and away my favorite unit, all 3 skills are fun to use and effective.
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:21 am |
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Aerasal
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
Posts: 3437
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wow ive seen like no zerg after the patch. makes sense cuz the zerg macro mechanic is just stupid right now.
switched to terran for now but I've only been playing 2v2. what does everyone think about siege tanks? they're so seldom used but to me they still seem extremely powerful.
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Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:17 pm |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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i still see a lot of zerg
im a toss player so when i see siege tanks i get really happy cuz they just get melted by immortals. from what i understand they're much better versus z and t though
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:18 pm |
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Kyr.Luoson
Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 1696
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Yeah most people dont use tanks not because there bad but because the MMM ball is more effective and can go up against almost any army
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Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:21 pm |
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Scrubbolator
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 1303
Location: Greece |
quote:
Originally posted by Aerasal
wow ive seen like no zerg after the patch. makes sense cuz the zerg macro mechanic is just stupid right now.
switched to terran for now but I've only been playing 2v2. what does everyone think about siege tanks? they're so seldom used but to me they still seem extremely powerful.
tanks are still good in every matchup.
tvt standard is basically tanks+vikings
tvz they're good against the lesser hp units lings/banelings/hydras/infestors. mech t - hellion/tank/thor is also one of the standard tvz strats
tvp you need to wait until late game so you can have a lot of tanks and ghosts to EMP at the same time and they become extremely tough to deal with
i think the zerg mechanic change was a good one. before this patch zerg was the easiest race to macro with even with the most number of bases and that simply shouldn't be imo.
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Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:26 am |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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quote:
Originally posted by Shotgun_
lol, the conc shot was way to overpriced at 100/100 and it took far to long. Protoss players really can't complain.
no it really wasn't and it really didn't, conc shot has no business being early tier 1. being able to endlessly kite units that early is ridiculous. it was good before because there was tension between picking it or stim, both of which are really really good upgrades, now its a lot easier to get both (especially if you're spamming marauders and have two tech labs). i'm not going to complain too much though because overpowered conc shot has made retard t's overly reliant on marauders and i usually beat them anyway
quote:
Originally posted by Scrubbolator
i think the zerg mechanic change was a good one. before this patch zerg was the easiest race to macro with even with the most number of bases and that simply shouldn't be imo.
i don't think that's true at all
toss all you have to do is chrono your buildings, terran all you have to do is put mules down on your minerals. both terran and protoss if you don't use your mule or chrono 100% optimally it doesn't hurt you THAT bad, with terran you just used all your saved up energy on mules and get those minerals anyway, toss you can spread your chrono over all your buildings. but if you're zerg and you miss a chance to spawn larva you're way behind on production and you can't catch up as easy because you make all your units out of the same building and you can only have one casting of spawn larva going on at a time
basically if you're zerg and you don't cast spawn larva every 25 seconds or whatever the interval is you're punished far more harshly than a terran or toss is for missing mule or chrono, and with that being the case i think zerg could really use that wireframe casting. and even with that wireframe casting in the UI, it's not like you have spawn larva on autocast and you're never ever going to forget it
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:02 am |
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Scrubbolator
Joined: 21 Sep 2001
Posts: 1303
Location: Greece |
with toss you lose production of your gateway units if you don't use your warpgates whenever the cooldown is ready
there's all kinds of different cooldowns because zealots are 22 secs, stalkers/sentries 32secs, templar more so it's pretty hard to do it constantly
not to mention you have to select your robo fac, nexuses and other buildings seperately to queue units
with terran you have to tab through all kinds of tech labs/reactors to make units from the right buildings
with zerg you don't want to miss inject larva but regardless of how many bases the timing is always exactly the same and you'd get used to it with enough games. then you have all your hatcheries in a group and produce whatever units you want to all easily and as long as you don't forget to inject larva you don't lose any production
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Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:00 am |
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hassan-i-sabbah
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 27424
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yeah but i think you're missing the point, that spawn larva, the zerg macro mechanic, is way more essential than chrono/mule and you are punished much more harshly for missing a larva spawn than you are for missing a chrono or a mule
btw for the record i play toss
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quote:
Originally posted by turtleman
A normal person wouldn't say that in real life because it's ridiculous and insulting. Yet here you are spouting the most hateful garbage that your demons can muster out of your darkened soul. All because of the internet.
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Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:03 am |
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BanMe
Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Originally posted by hassan-i-sabbah
yeah but i think you're missing the point, that spawn larva, the zerg macro mechanic, is way more essential than chrono/mule and you are punished much more harshly for missing a larva spawn than you are for missing a chrono or a mule
btw for the record i play toss
more essential, and more powerful.
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Kanuks - The fact is you and foonew tried a double gay on me and ended up being BOTH behind me. Enough fucking said.
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Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:23 pm |
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Warcraft Occult Forum Index
-> Starcraft II General Discussion
, so I am not saying Zerg is weak. I just think the units are rather bland, and they keep taking out all the interesting aspects of zerg out(Larva mangement, etc).
